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Field and factory conversion units management

Il-2 Sturmovik, Forgotten Battles, Pacific Fighters, '46 etc.

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Field and factory conversion units management

Postby greybeard » Sat Sep 29, 2012 8:25 am

This game provides all available Rüstsätze and Umrüst-Bausätze (according to model: e.g. Gustav can have R6 as well as U4, WfGr21, etc). Among them, mission generator picks the most suited for each mission.

I wonder, is this realistic? I mean, could they really choose which armament to fit for a given mission?

Thanks for any comment,
GB
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Re: Field and factory conversion units management

Postby lumino » Fri Oct 12, 2012 10:29 am

ruestsaetze R could be changed on the airfield.
for the 109 G6:
R1 was the mount for the SC250,
R3 was the 300l drop tank
R6 were the gondola mounted MG 151/20
the WGr 21 could be installed on the airfield too, so the plane could indeed be adopted to different missions.

from 109 G-1 on, the plane was wired for optional equipment like drop tank, bombs and under wing weapons.

according the the manual 109 G-6/U4, a MK 108 engine cannon was installed.
this was not a field conversion.
the manual states, that also 2 MK 108 with 35 rpg could be gondola mounted.

according to the manual 109 G-6/R2, this was the MW 50 installation, als used in G-10, G-10/R2, G-10/R6, G-10/U4, G-14, G-14/U4, G-14/AS.
the MW 50 installation was maybe not a field conversion.

according to falcons site, 109 G-6/R2 was a Jagdbomber like 109G-6/R1, but with 4 SC 50.
later, again according to falcons site, R2 ment the WGr 21 (or 42? )
looks like R2 had different meanings..

in general, the R conversions could be done at unit level,
U conversions were done in the factory.

no?
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Re: Field and factory conversion units management

Postby Denniss » Mon Oct 15, 2012 7:09 pm

/R2 109Gs were recon birds, nothing else.
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Re: Field and factory conversion units management

Postby lumino » Mon Oct 22, 2012 12:28 pm

there is a nice list on wikipedia, the R kits with roman numbers were exchangeable on the field.

Common Rüstsatz kits: Bf 109G:
R I (ETC 501/IX b bomb rack under the fuselage, fusing equipment for an SC 250 or SD 250 type 250 kg (550 lb) bomb)
R II (ETC 50/VIII d bomb rack under the fuselage, fusing equipment, for four SC 50 type 50 kg (110 lb) bombs)
R III (Schloß 503A-1 rack for one fuselage drop tank (300 L/80 US gal))
R IV (two 30 mm (1.18 in) Rheinmetall-Borsig MK 108 underwing gunpods)
R VI (two 20 mm Mauser MG 151/20 underwing gunpods with 135 rpg)
R VII (Peilrufanlage)
Common Umrüst-Bausatz (Umbau) numbers:
U1 (Messerschmitt P6 reversible-pitch propeller to be used as air brake, only prototypes)
U2 (GM-1 boost, during 1944 several hundred converted to MW-50 boost)
U3 (Reconnaissance conversion, in autumn 1943 G-6/U3 adopted as G-8 production variant)
U4 (30 mm (1.18 in) MK 108 Motorkanone engine-mounted cannon)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschm ... d_variants
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Re: Field and factory conversion units management

Postby HoHun » Sun Apr 03, 2016 7:43 pm

Hi Lumino,

>R II (ETC 50/VIII d bomb rack under the fuselage, fusing equipment, for four SC 50 type 50 kg (110 lb) bombs)

So is this Roman vs. Arabic numeral distinction real? I'm not sure I've ever seen it in contemporary documents ...

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)
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Re: Field and factory conversion units management

Postby lumino » Wed Apr 06, 2016 12:57 am

HoHun wrote:So is this Roman vs. Arabic numeral distinction real? I'm not sure I've ever seen it in contemporary documents ...

hi henning,
Ruestsatz 2 = Ruestsatz II, both was used in documents, i think.

the 109 G-1 with GM-1 is a bit unclear. falcon calls it
Bf 109 G-1/U2
diese Version war als leichter Jäger mit GM-1 Anlage und Druckkabine ausgelegt.


prien & rodeike make a difference between Ruestsatz und Ruestzustand and explain:
"the last 80 machines built by messerschmitt were delivered as Bf 109 G-1/R2 lightened high-altitude fighters, the R2 designation signifying Ruestzustand 2.
in addition to the deletion of the pilots back armour and the equipment associated with the long range fuel tank, this included an unprotected metal fuel tank and GM-1 injection.."


in the chapter about the 109 G-2 they write
"a G-2 with Ruestsatz R1 did not become a G-2/R1. the R-suffix attached to the aircrafts designation referred instead to the Ruestzustand of the aircraft in question.
2 Ruestzustaende were planned for the G-2:
G-2/R1: 2 300 l jettisonable fuel tanks beneath the wings, an ETC 500 and an aux under carriage leg..
G-2/R2: reconnaissance aircraft with GM-1 and camera eq..
finally, there was one Umbausatz for the G-2: the G-2/U1 was to have been fitted with a Me P6 propeller."


:wink:
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Re: Field and factory conversion units management

Postby HoHun » Wed Apr 06, 2016 2:37 pm

Hi Lumino,

>Ruestsatz 2 = Ruestsatz II, both was used in documents, i think.

Thanks, that was what I was wondering about. So it looks like writing Arabic vs. Roman numerals is a modern attempt to avoid confusion, not a historic convention ... or at least not one that historically was observed.

>Bf 109 G-1/U2

Hm, aren't there examples when something was first launched as retrofit ("/U"), then changed into a kit under a different designation ("/R")? If not on the Me 109, it might have been on the Fw 190 ...

I'm not sure there were separate designations for every kind of equipment, anyway. The MK 108 engine cannon was /U4, but it seems that MK 108 underwing cannon, for which a regular manual was issued, were covered in a "Beiheft" under the same /U4 designation.

(From what I've read, the MK 108 underwing cannon saw little or no use at all, apparently because there weren't enough MK 108 cannons to go around.)

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)
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Re: Field and factory conversion units management

Postby lumino » Thu Jul 14, 2016 6:49 pm

HoHun wrote:
>Ruestsatz 2 = Ruestsatz II, both was used in documents, i think.

Thanks, that was what I was wondering about. So it looks like writing Arabic vs. Roman numerals is a modern attempt to avoid confusion, not a historic convention ... or at least not one that historically was observed.

hi henning,
it looks like the "R" was used for 2 different things, for example
109 G-6 with R III = Ruestsatz 3 (droptank) and 109 G-6/R3 = Ruestzustand 3 (recon plane with camera).
so denniss i correct.
denniss wrote:/R2 109Gs were recon birds, nothing else.

wikipedia wrote:Bf 109 G-6: Jäger; Motor wie G-5, Bewaffnung 2 × 13-mm-MG 131, 1 × 20-mm-MG 151/20 als Motorkanone; keine Druckkabine
Bf 109 G-6 trop: Jäger; Motor und Bewaffnung wie G-6; tropentaugliche Version (Sandfilter, Notausrüstung)
Bf 109 G-6/R2: Aufklärer; Motor wie G-6, Bewaffnung 1 × 20-mm-MG 151/20; mit Reihenbildgerät RB 50/30
Bf 109 G-6/R3: Aufklärer; Motor wie G-6, Bewaffnung 1 × 20-mm-MG 151/20; mit Reihenbildgerät RB 75/30
Bf 109 G-6/U2: Jäger; Motor und Bewaffnung wie G-6; GM-1-Zusatzeinspritzung
Bf 109 G-6/U3: Jäger; Motor und Bewaffnung wie G-6; MW-50-Zusatzeinspritzung
Bf 109 G-6/U4: wie G-6 aber 30-mm-Motorkanone MK 108 statt der 20-mm-MG 151/20
Bf 109 G-6/N: Nachtjäger; Motor und Bewaffnung wie G-6, oft mit den Rüstsätzen R III (Zusatztank) und R VI (zwei MG 151/20 unter den Flächen) ausgestattet, FuG 350 Naxos-Z
Bf 109 G-6/AS: Jäger; Motor DB 605 AS, Bewaffnung wie G-6; vergrößertes Seitenleitwerk aus Holz
Bf 109 G-6/Y: Führungsmaschine für Staffel- und Gruppenführer; FuG-16-ZY-Funkgerät, Peilantenne unter dem Rumpf
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Re: Field and factory conversion units management

Postby HoHun » Tue Jul 19, 2016 12:18 pm

Hi Lumino,

>it looks like the "R" was used for 2 different things, for example
>109 G-6 with R III = Ruestsatz 3 (droptank) and 109 G-6/R3 = Ruestzustand 3 (recon plane with camera).

I agree - what I'm confused about is, are there any contemporary documents showing that the difference was indeed encoded by use of Arabic vs. Roman numerals?

If it's a modern convention to avoid further confusion, that's great too - it just means that I couldn't read WW2 documents and expect them to adhere to the modern convention, obviously.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)
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Re: Field and factory conversion units management

Postby lumino » Tue Jul 19, 2016 7:32 pm

you might know that document below about the recon version.
in all the 109 G manuals i have Ruestsatz-numbers are not mentioned.
the 109 K manual uses latin numbers.
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Re: Field and factory conversion units management

Postby lumino » Wed Jul 20, 2016 6:47 am

in the manual 109 G-6/U4 the designation is Rüstsatz 6
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