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DO 335 vs Skyraider

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DO 335 vs Skyraider

Postby Invisible shadow » Mon Feb 13, 2017 6:31 pm

Suppose US built 335s sent em to Viet Nam, which would be better?


...................-The Messerschmitt P8 High Speed Reversible-Pitch Propeller was to be tested on model A-08
The propeller pitch could not only be feathered, but set to a negative angle to provide thrust reversing to brake in flight or on the taxiing run after landing. This reduced the landing rollout by 200m.(luchtoorlog.be, Monogram Close-Up #21)


Hyrdraulic boosted ailerons also
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Re: DO 335 vs Skyraider

Postby DaveBender » Tue Feb 14, 2017 2:27 pm

Skyraider was designed as a high endurance dive and torpedo bomber. Do335 was not. IMO the Me-410 would be a much better choice for CAS.
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Re: DO 335 vs Skyraider

Postby Invisible shadow » Tue Feb 14, 2017 6:12 pm

Yes but it certainly would've been adapted for torpedoes and or dive bombing had the US built it.


The best I was able to find was the following unsourced statement on this page http://www.fiddlersgreen.net/models/air ... Arrow.html



"The pilot was provided with a Revi C 12/13 reflector sight which, mounted on a Schwenkplatte (swivel-plate) SP 1, could be used both as a gun sight and as a dive-bombing sight"



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_A-1_Skyraider

There are many low level missions mentioned here, couldn't find any dive bombing ones. & Only 1 torpedo mission



Skyraiders made the only aerial torpedo attack of the war, hitting the Hwacheon Dam, then controlled by North Korea.[11]
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Re: DO 335 vs Skyraider

Postby HoHun » Sun Mar 19, 2017 11:44 pm

Hi Invisible,

>There are many low level missions mentioned here, couldn't find any dive bombing ones.

Here's a link to the Standard Aircraft Characteristics sheets for the AD-4:

http://www.alternatewars.com/SAC/AD-4_S ... r_1952.pdf

Note that dive bombing features prominently in the mission description.

(The site is a treasure trove for SAC sheets, by the way.)

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)
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Re: DO 335 vs Skyraider

Postby Invisible shadow » Wed Mar 22, 2017 8:01 pm

So this means it was designed for such, but didn't do much in actual practice ?
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Re: DO 335 vs Skyraider

Postby HoHun » Fri Mar 24, 2017 8:40 am

Hi Invisible,

>So this means it was designed for such, but didn't do much in actual practice ?

From what I've read, I'd say the Skyraider was probably replaced as a strike aircraft by the jets of the time.

In the support role, my impression is that attacks were usually made against targets that were difficult to recognize, so the classic dive bombing attack from great altitude with dropping all of the ordnance in one go was probably out. Additionally, the aircraft apparently were often armed with a wide variety of different weapons ("supermarket load-out", it was called in one account), which would have different trajectories and required different attack methods.

That often meant several runs if all the ammunition was to be expended against a single target, and as the Skyraider wasn't that good a climber while carrying loads, you'd probably not use the dive brakes on the way down, because that would mean a climb back up to attack altitude would take longer as the brakes would have killed some speed you'd otherwise could have used for zooming back up again.

However, I have no statistical information, that's just stuff I read somewhere ... maybe even online, but it's been too long to remember exactly. Googling did not help. If you know a search engine that can do boolean operations (like "Skyraider AND Supermarket"), I'd appreciate a recommendation.

Err ... here it is, Google found it. Apparently, "Supermarket Skyraider" gives different results from "Skyraider Supermarket". Bad idea if you ask me.

http://a-1combatjournal.com/journalset/jrnChap3.htm

Look for "Supermarket" on the page. Also interesting: The bit on "switchology".

Regards,

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Re: DO 335 vs Skyraider

Postby Invisible shadow » Wed Mar 29, 2017 11:35 pm

Interesting.

We had a mixed bag of ordnance for this mission which meant we could handle most any kind of target. Our normal targets in this area were actual troops on the ground, or gun emplacements. Either way, we normally drew lots of small arms fire - especially when we worked low under an overcast. We were in the small arms envelope the entire time.

On a mission like this, we normally would make about a half dozen passes each, which seems like a lot until you consider that we had 12 external stations carrying ordnance plus a minigun and four 20 mm cannons.
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Re: DO 335 vs Skyraider

Postby HoHun » Sat Apr 08, 2017 8:45 am

Hi Dave,

>Skyraider was designed as a high endurance dive and torpedo bomber. Do335 was not. IMO the Me-410 would be a much better choice for CAS.

Damn, I just tried to look up stuff on the Do 335, and found that I bought Griehl's book on the type twice! :-D

Any good book you could recommend on the Me 410?

On another forum, I just found this:
>>And here are Winkle Brown's comments on both the 210 and the 410.

"The basic problems with the Me 210 were marked longitudinal instability and a tendency to spin at the slightest provocation. This combination of faults could hardly have been more restrictive on the manoeuvrability of a twin-engined fighter/dive bomber or more lethal to its crews, and so it proved to be.


[The 410] fell short of the Mosquito in most performance respects and far short of its British contemporary on the score of manoeuvrability. It was one of those aeroplanes that gave, in my view, a knife-edge feeling to its pilot; it was certainly about the last aeroplane that I would have wished upon myself if returning to base in bad weather after losing an engine!

Wings of the Luftwaffe pgs 256-6<<


What surprises me is that my copy of "Wings of the Luftwaffe" (1987 edition) has only 176 numbered pages, and doesn't talk about the Me 210/410 at all. I also seem to remember that I had been searching for the "knife-edge" comment a couple of years ago, fruitlessly.

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Re: DO 335 vs Skyraider

Postby HoHun » Sat Apr 08, 2017 8:58 am

Hi again,

>What surprises me is that my copy of "Wings of the Luftwaffe" (1987 edition) has only 176 numbered pages, and doesn't talk about the Me 210/410 at all. I also seem to remember that I had been searching for the "knife-edge" comment a couple of years ago, fruitlessly.

Oh, now I found one instance of it - it's on page 166, in the chapter on the Bf 110. However, it's not identical to the quotes above, so I'm still missing something ...

Regards,

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Re: DO 335 vs Skyraider

Postby Denniss » Sat Apr 08, 2017 5:40 pm

There's a 2010 edition of the book with 270+ pages
ISBN 978-1902109152
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Re: DO 335 vs Skyraider

Postby Invisible shadow » Mon Apr 10, 2017 7:04 pm

Aeroplane mag has an interview with Fritz Stehle, he says the 410 was helpless against the P-51, you just had to hope you're rear gunner was a good shot.What he would do was get a signal from the rear gunner, then chop throttle, drop flaps & slow down real fast & P-51 would shoot by & that would buy us time.

He got 18 4 engine bombers with the big gun in it.



was fitted with a combined gun sight comprising a four-power telescope with collimator. This made it possible to deliver precision fire from a range of 1000 meters and more,
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Re: DO 335 vs Skyraider

Postby Invisible shadow » Mon Apr 10, 2017 8:27 pm

as to 410 for CAS, interesting thought.

Imagine P-51 with 20 mm cannon? many more 410 would've been scrap metal if that were the case.
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Re: DO 335 vs Skyraider

Postby HoHun » Tue Apr 11, 2017 7:56 am

Hi Denniss,

>There's a 2010 edition of the book with 270+ pages
>ISBN 978-1902109152

Ah, thank a lot, I was quite confused! :-)

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Re: DO 335 vs Skyraider

Postby HoHun » Tue Apr 11, 2017 7:58 am

Hi Invisible,

>He got 18 4 engine bombers with the big gun in it.

Highly impressive!

>was fitted with a combined gun sight comprising a four-power telescope with collimator. This made it possible to deliver precision fire from a range of 1000 meters and more,

Flugzeug Classic had an article on the Me 410 cannon birds recently, and I think it showed that the precision was not that good, and in fact I believe that Galland was quoted as saying they should have known this in advance as the cannon's disperson radius was fairly large.

Regards,

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Re: DO 335 vs Skyraider

Postby HoHun » Tue Apr 11, 2017 8:52 am

Hi Invisible,

>Imagine P-51 with 20 mm cannon? many more 410 would've been scrap metal if that were the case.

It's interesting to compare the armament of the P-51D and the generally similar Fw 190D-9:

P-51D: 6x ,50 Browning M2 - 1840 rounds - 439 kg - 100% firepower
Fw 190D-9: 2x MG 151/20 - 250 rpg + 2x MG 131 - 475 rpg - 299 kg - 149% firepower

The battery of the Fw 190D-9 weighed less than 70% of that of the P-51D, but delivered 149% of the firepower.

In terms of duration of fire, the P-51D would get 29 s of fire from the two inboard guns, and 21 s from the four outboard guns.

The Fw 190D-9 would get 25 s from its cannon, and 31 s from its machine guns.

The advantage of cannon is even more pronounced if you compare the battery of the Do 335A, which actually weighs less than the Mustang's, but provides almost three times the firepower:

1x MK 103 - 70 rpg - 205 kg - 165% firepower
2x MG 151/20 - 200 rpg - 169 kg - 124% firepower
Total: 375 kg - 289% firepower

(Sometimes it's assumed the Do 335 would have had 15 mm cowl guns, but I'm not sure what this was based on ... the German documents I've seen only state "MG 151", and by that time, this meant the 20 mm version. I'm not even sure the 15 mm version was still in production by the time the Do 335 was entering production.)

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